As Plato presents it, Socrates'
Apology is only partly a legal defense. What else is Socrates trying to accomplish? How successful is he? Could Socrates have been more effective if he had wanted to escape condemnation? To what extent does Socrates even want to escape condemnation? Why? Do you see anything here that particularly shows why some early Christians thought of Socrates as a "Christian before Christ"?
From my point of view, it seems like Socrates is trying to guit the people of Athens, and he also is trying to make them look like a fool in some sort of way. These points come up when he his questioning Meletus. He is constantly making statesments to lead Meletus on to a conclusion, which he (Socrates) is trying to make and the people of Athens cannot determine. Even going as far as to make fun of them, like when he says, "By the goddess Hera, that is good news! There are plenty of improvers, then. And what do you say of the audience, do they improve them? " This comment in a way makes me think of Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. Both of them are using satire to get their point across. This makes me think that he could have gotten out of being condemned if he wanted to to. Socrates was a master of using words to his advatange and could have easliy swayed the people to his view. The fact that he didn't want to escape is clear when he willingly drank the posion used in his exicution. By willingly accepting the cup and drinking, he had no desire to get out of the situation alive. I believe that this was his way of becoming a martyr to spead his teachings around. In this way he is very parallel to Jesus. Both men were tried for corrupting the youth in some way or another and both willingly were executed. Additionally, their teachings were both upheld by their students after their deaths. Trent Dean
ReplyDelete. I got the exact same vibe reading this again. Socrates could have done a much better job of defending himself, such a smart man, but would rather spend his time making his accusers look like fools...and it's didn't work. Just like our friend Jon Stewart, his satire is spot on and no one listens. Seems like such OBVIOUS truth when he says it. Yet it's gone from our consciousness almost as soon as it the segment ends.
DeleteI felt it was very interesting in how he flips the point of the trial. During his "defense", he flips it to criticism of the current state of the system. If Socrates really wanted to, he could have easily provided a defense sufficient enough to get off. By doing what he did, he not only was trying to be a teacher but also accepted his fate of death.
ReplyDeleteKent Johnsen
Socrates Apology
ReplyDeleteLet me start with saying that I’m amazed at the accuracy or perceived accuracy with which all ancient story were written. Plato’s account of Socrates apology reads like a literal narrative, word for word. It makes the story more believable, or does it? There’s no way someone could write fast enough to capture every word, and if you’re paraphrasing or recollecting shouldn’t you note that as well? Anyway, Socrates should have prepared for his defense. Even if he had no intentions a seeking an acquittal, I think that as a good teacher he should have prepared and rehearsed his argument. If Socrates was not used to such a large audience, but was seizing an opportunity, you’d assume he’d prepare more. I hate to keep being the nitpicker, but unlike Jesus disciples Socrates is not assuming that God is going to fill his voice with intelligent words, yet they are there (20 pages in the version I read) without a stutter? The great orators of our time write & rehearse their speeches, is all I’m saying. I think about the only thing that really separates Socrates from Christian apologetic writes is that he wasn’t Christian. Socrates uses the word “truth” you replace truth with “faith” and you have apologetic writing, there is much to draw on from this apology. Having only read one apologist who referenced the great Greek and Roman philosophers, including Socrates by name, I’d say I’m right. I look forward to seeing if I can find similarities in other apologetic writings to Socrates Apology.
Socrates in defending his life really doesn’t defend himself. Instead he challenges the judges to defend their actions and debates with the judges. He could have defended himself but I don’t see why he should have, other than antagonize some of the ruling assembly he had not done anything illegal. He might have caused people to ask questions but that is not illegal, the charges were merely an excuse to have a trial where the outcome was decided beforehand. To maintain the illusion of legality a trial was needed so the ruling assembly could do away with someone they felt was a threat, real or imagined.
ReplyDeleteJerry Taylor
In Plato’s Socrates’ Apology, Socrates says, “Some one will say: And are you not ashamed, Socrates, of a course of life which is likely to bring you to an untimely end? To him I may fairly answer: There you are mistaken: a man who is good for anything ought not to calculate the chance of living or dying; he ought only to consider whether in doing anything he is doing right or wrong.” (28b) I think this is the underlying motivation of Socrates’ life, and certainly of his defense of himself at the trial. He compares himself to the Greek hero Achilles, who was told by his goddess mother that if he avenged the death of his friend Patroclus at Hector’s hand, he would die himself. Socrates states, “He (Achilles), receiving this warning, utterly despised danger and death, and instead of fearing them, feared rather to live in dishonor.” (28d)
ReplyDeleteSocrates had lived his whole life in pursuit of truth and at his ripe old age, he was not going to waste the opportunity of addressing his (most likely) largest audience ever in groveling and appealing to emotion to save his life. He is not afraid of death; he says “the fear of death is indeed the pretense of wisdom, and not real wisdom, being a pretense of knowing the unknown; and no one knows whether death, which men … apprehend to be the greatest evil, may not be the greatest good.” (29a)
Socrates speaks of a sign, “which is a kind of voice, [that] first began to come to me when I was a child; it always forbids but never commands me to do anything which I am going to do.” (31d) “The oracle made no sign of opposition [to what I said], either when I was leaving my house … or when I was on my way to the court, or while I was speaking, at anything which I was going to say … in nothing I either said or did touching the matter in hand has the oracle stopped me.” (40c)
Socrates believes that he serves a purpose as a “gadfly” to the Athenians; he thinks they should spare him not for his sake but for theirs, as he is a gift from God to them. (30e) He says that “there are other ways of escaping death, if a man is willing to say and do anything.” But he prefers death to being imprisoned, and he knows that “the difficulty … is not to avoid death, but to avoid unrighteousness.” (39a) Socrates is a man who has lived his life in the pursuit of truth for the purpose of helping his fellow man, and he will not go against his principles, not even to save his life.
I found it rather interesting that during this trial, Socrates not only accepted his fate, he flipped the whole situation, made the judges defend why they were doing what they were doing, and used it as a teaching opportunity. This was very brave of him, considering if he wanted to he could have spent the time he had to defend himself and save his life.
ReplyDeleteI chose to write about Plato's defense of Socrates I believe this defense shows a similar narrative to that of Jesus. That is true based on two significant reasons, one of which is the time and age and which he was present. The second one I find much more intriguing is that he used questions to answer his defendant's questions. Socrates likely knew going into his trial he was done for, or maybe not.
ReplyDeleteMaybe this is where the Proverbs 9:7-13 would have been usefull to Socrates some good in this situation.
7 "He who corrects a scoffer only gets insulted;
reproving a wicked man becomes his blemish.
8 If you reprove a scoffer, he will hate you;
if you reprove a wise man, he will love you.
9 Give to a wise man, and he grows still wiser;
teach a righteous man, and he will learn still more.
10 The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of holy ones is understanding.
11 For with me, your days will be increased;
years will be added to your life.
12 If you are wise, your wisdom helps you;
but if you scoff, you bear the consequences alone."
As I mentioned above, Plato shows the reason Socrates was put to his death was likely to impart to the times. Socrates's cohort in which he came into is nothing he could do about it, and like Jesus, that inevitably led to a hill too great to climb. Did he, as Jesus, intend to go to his death, though, or as in the Proverbs mentioned above, did he not realize he should leave the scoffer and wicked man alone even though he holds much wisdom? Was it a divine revelation to reach a different group of people, or Socrates being too wise for his good?
Then the last thing I wrote that I liked about Plato's apology, which the Proverb I listed also applies to in that he may have thought himself too wise. As it is written in Plato's apology, Socrates went to find only smart people to debate. However, were the most intelligent, he could see just all men who were fools.
I like Plato's defense because it clears my questions of whether Socrates was wrong, especially regarding my knowledge of the scriptures. As it seems Socrates acted upon just terms, he got stuck in a cohort in the wrong place and time. Yet he still tried to make the best of it and searched for the wisest to enlighten more, as proverbs recommend. The wise were not wise and, in return, not teachable.
Tanner Simon
I like how Socrates is trying to make the court room feel bad of what they are doing. It does seem however the court system itself is very much against him and I feel like he already knows that. I think if i was him going into this I would try to persuade them by using more emotion as well as logic and reason. When he gets sentence to death a quote I found compelling was one of his true reactions as well as warning to the people of Athens. "And I prophesy to you who are my murderers, that immediately after my death punishment for heavier than you have inflicted on me will surly await you". This quote from the Apology had me thinking of the same thing Jesus said when he was being sent to the cross when he asked God to forgive them for they no not what they are doing. I think Socrates also thinks they need to reconsider because they have no idea what they are doing.
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