I had never read a word from Butler or Paley before picking up the Bush anthology, and I doubt very much that most 18th century history texts say much at all about either of them. Why do you suppose this is? Are these writers somewhat of a dead end in the "great conversation"? Or are their voices unfairly neglected?
One thing I've learned so far in my life is that its not so much what you know its who you know. Both of these writes make great contributions to the great conversation. One of the many things they have going against them is that they just aren't as popular then their other contemporaries. It is hard to get a word in edgewise when you are put in the same boat as Pascal even though their work is written 100 years apart.
ReplyDeleteTrent Dean
Trent,
DeleteI believe you spot on with your comment. What gets promoted totally depends on who is doing the promoting. And I do believe who does the promoting greatly depends on the politics and the rulers of the time. Butler and Paley both had great contributions with their writings. Maybe their writings weren't controversial enough to raise eyebrows or maybe their ideas weren't as "catchy" to the people at that time. Either way, I do think they were/are unfairly neglected because of the bias of the time.
Samantha
Ponder for a moment how many Reformers were permanently silenced, declared a heretic, and their life's works destroyed by "The Man", and then ended up burned alive at the stake??? Don't ponder too long. History remembers the popular men, not the proper men.
DeleteI go along with Kent in that neither of Paley nor Butler was controversial nor illuminating enough to secure a place in all apologetic history sources. This is not to say that they did not contribute to the discussion in their own times but it was not enough to echo through the centuries.
ReplyDeleteThis is odd since Paley did influence Charles Darwin so he was known and read during his time. Maybe it was Darwin’s reference to Paley that led to his being relegated to the footnotes of history because of the controversial aspects of Darwin’s work. The religious establishment may have felt threatened that one of their own would have influenced such a radical as Darwin.
Jerry Taylor
I agree with everyone above me. Paley and Butler did make great strides to the Great Conversion. However i feel like they where not strong enough with what was going on during those times. Many people tried to expand or go beyond the world religion of that time which was heavy in the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church was running things all over. Whenever someone had a theology or a ideology that goes against them they where quick to getting rid of it. I think that was a main reason that these sources where not getting attention was because everyone was scared to go or even argue against some points of the catholic church. Both of these people did influence people in the future however.
ReplyDeleteI think that these writers are not talked about a lot because their writing tended to be very argumentative and insulting to the people back then. Along with this, I don't think they are a "dead end" in the great conversation. I think that their writings and theories could have been a good thing to add into the conversations from back then and even adding them to todays conversations would be a good thing because it makes people stop and think about their beliefs on a deeper level than just superficially.
ReplyDeleteButler and Paley are often left out of history books today because their writings were tied to debates that were important in the 1700s but feel less urgent now. They were answering questions about religion and reason that were big in their time, especially with people doubting Christianity. But when you have guys like Aquinas, Plato, and Augustine who deal with issues that cross all times their works will stick around more.
ReplyDeleteStill, it’s not fair to say they don’t matter. In their time, they were very influential, and they helped shape how people defended faith using reason. Paley’s design argument was especially famous before evolution changed the way people saw the world. Butler’s moral arguments also had a lasting impact. So while they may not be at the center of the “Great Conversation” today, their voices were needed.
While everyone else makes a great point that these writers in particular simply didn't make an impactful enough statement, I would like to add onto the fact that Christianity as a whole is a subject that is vast and is constantly evolving or splintering into different factions.
ReplyDeleteThere are wars, there is fighting, there are philosophers debating the meaning of this sentence and that symbol. It's not as if religion as a whole is being suppressed - Christianity is, after all, one of the most popular religions on Earth, especially in Europe and America. If a writer merely rehashes issues that others have taken up with Christianity as a whole and seems to barely add onto the current argument, then there is no real point to focus on it when there are much better examples to use.
Based on the text, it seems that Joseph Butler and William Paley are not widely discussed in 18th-century history texts because their work is more closely associated with specific theological and philosophical debates, rather than broader historical narratives. According to Bush, Christian apologetics as an independent discipline within theological studies didn't really come into its own until the 19th century, with the work of thinkers like Friedrich Schleiermacher and K.H. Sack.
ReplyDeleteGiven this context, it's possible that Butler and Paley's voices are somewhat neglected because their work falls within a specific niche of theological and apologetic studies. However, Bush's text also suggests that their ideas were influential in shaping the development of Christian apologetics, and that they continue to be relevant in ongoing debates about faith and reason.
It's likely that their ideas are worth revisiting and considering in contemporary discussions, especially given the ongoing debates between empiricists, fideists, and evidentialists. Bush's anthology, which includes the work of Butler and Paley, may help to bring their ideas back into the conversation and highlight their continued relevance.
Solomon Haile
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